Heeding the Call

"A Conversation with Five Women in Ministry"

When Christians talk about women in ministry, they often spend most of their time focused on biblical texts and church policy, not on the people doing the ministry. At the Midwinter Conference this past February, Companion editors Jane K. Swanson-Nystrom and Bob Smietana sat down with five women ministers to talk about their call, their life in ministry, and their hopes for the future.

Nancy Gordon, president of the Association for Covenant Clergy Women, is presently director of growth opportunities at Friendship Village in Schaumburg, Illinois, a non-denominational retirement community. She was associate pastor of Winnetka Covenant Church in Winnetka, Illinois for five years before going to Friendship Village.

Mary Miller is the corporate secretary for the Evangelical Covenant Church and the first woman denominational officer. She served as an associate pastor at Faith Covenant in Farmington Hills, Michigan; pastor of Bethel Evangelical Covenant Church in Flossmoor, Illinois; and as pastor at the Evangelical Covenant Church in Donaldson, Indiana. She also served a Methodist church for three years.

Heidi Wiebe pastors Evangelical Covenant Church in Oberlin, Kansas. Prior to that, she served Grandview Covenant Church in Larchwood, Iowa for seven years.

Kathy Brawley teaches on the Strathmore, Alberta campus of Covenant Bible College (CBC), where she has been for five years. Before coming to CBC, she helped start Covenant Mission Connection and served as coordinator for CHIC 88. She spent four years in music evangelism and five years as a youth pastor at a Baptist church in Plainfield, Indiana.

Judy McCullough pastors the Covenant Congregational Church in Boston, Massachusetts, where she has served for six years. Before that, she served for eight years as associate pastor in a United Church of Christ church in Norwell, Massachusetts. She also served for twenty years as a director of Christian education at a UCC church in Dover, Massachusetts, and at two Presbyterian churches in Pittsburgh.

Jane Swanson-Nystrom: When did you first hear a call to ministry and how was that confirmed? Who were your mentors for ministry?

Judy McCullough: I was seventeen years old, and I was standing in the sanctuary of the First Presbyterian Church in Jackson, Michigan. I had been elected secretary of youth organization, and we were standing up in front, singing the hymn "O Jesus, I Have Promised." I knew when I was standing there that I would follow Jesus Christ in the church somehow. I had no clue how--at that point I didn't know that there weren't women ministers.

The minister of our church was a wonderfully affirming man. He gave me leadership roles as a young person in the church. I fully intended to go to McCor-mick Seminary in Chicago when I graduated from college. I did not expect to fall in love.

Enter Tom McCullough. Back then, women did not go to school--women worked and husbands went to school. So Tom went to graduate school and I got a full-time job as a director of Christian education. I earned $3,400 a year and put Tom through school with that.

Tom always said to me, "When you are ready to go to seminary, you can go." So in 1970, when our third child was ready for daycare, I entered Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. Three weeks after classes started I discovered I was pregnant. I finished the year, wrote my last paper on Sunday night, finished it at midnight, and our daughter was born Monday morning. The next fall, I came back to school and a seminary wife watched her while I was in class. When I discovered I was pregnant with Greg, I dropped out of school. Tom took a job in Boston, and I needed to go to work and get the kids settled.

In Boston, I started seminary again, one course at a time, at Andover Newton. Since there weren't many Presbyterian churches, we joined the church closest to our house, which was United Church of Christ. I graduated from seminary the same year my son graduated from college and my daughter graduated from high school. I was ordained in 1985, and then I was called to the Norwell church.

Nancy Gordon: I remember experiences like Judy's as a kid and as a teenager, in really feeling moved to serve God. But I had no idea what shape that would take. My dad was a pastor in the Nazarene Church. Even though they historically ordained women, the only woman I saw in ministry was a evangelist who came to our church a couple of times. She had a rather unique and colorful personality, and I remember that I didn't want to be like her.

I got married right after college and put my husband through graduate school. We ended up in Iowa City in the late seventies and early eighties, and attended a Mennonite church there. At one point, a woman on the staff told me she was going to a women in ministry conference. She asked if I would like to come along. I had thought about ministry but had never said one word out loud about it. When she asked me that question, I felt that I had just been unmasked. I called her up a few days later, and she said, "It's obvious to me that you have the gifts and heart for ministry. At some point, you are going to have to decide whether being a volunteer is enough."

When we moved to Salem, Oregon, we ended up at Trinity Covenant Church, where David Smith was the pastor. David was an incredible mentor. At one point he said to me, "I think that God is calling you to something and we need to talk about that."

In the six years I was there I ended up going through a divorce that was very traumatic and not in my plan for my life. At the time the divorce was happening, I became more and more convinced that God was calling me to ministry. I didn't know how those two things fit together--it certainly didn't in my paradigm.

I ended up at Garrett-Evangelical Seminary in Evanston, Illinois, though when I went to seminary, I wasn't sure there was going to be a place for me in the Covenant. And that's still a question.

Mary Miller: I don't know when my call to ministry came--it was just part of my faith. I went to a state school and I remember going in to see my advisor and saying, "I'll take whatever course to get me out of here quickly because I am going into the ministry." My advisor said, "We'll see what you say in four years." Well, I graduated in three, and I really wish I had gone back to him for an exit interview.

I was attending Winnetka Covenant when the vote came to ordain women. In the spring before the vote to ordain women came, I did some part-time study to see if I could pass Greek. (I was a little afraid of it.)

As far as my mentors--my mother worked all my life and she has been a tremendous help as a model for integrating family, personal life, and work.

The pastor of the church I grew up in is probably the imprint for ministry that I have. He was very supportive of my call into ministry and had no idea of where it would go. He just affirmed me, so did the church.

Heidi Wiebe: My call wasn't an out-of-the-blue thing either. I wanted to be a doctor. I couldn't imagine doing anything else with my life. I wanted to be a surgeon like my dad. He knew it would be hard, but never once did he discourage me from doing what I wanted to do.

When I was in my sophomore year in college, my mom went to a women in ministry conference at Fuller Seminary and began to look seriously, not so much at ministry but at studying theology. Because I'd never seen a woman minister, I didn't know if that was right or not. So I read all the texts and studied the topic, and I thought, "This is okay. You can do this."

But then I began to see her struggle. I felt bad because of what was happening to her, because I knew how gifted she was. I lived that life with her but being a minister wasn't something I wanted to do. But when my dreams of going to medical school and being a doctor really came to a screeching halt, I had to reevaluate life, and where it was that I wanted to go.

I moved to Sante Fe and started getting involved in a church. The pastor encouraged me to be involved at all different levels of the church. He wanted me to come on the steering committee. He saw something in me, evidently, and wanted me to be involved. I became a lector and an assisting minister in the worship service. It was amazing to be involved on that level in a church. Over those years of being in Sante Fe, I had a slow dawning that maybe I could do all the things I'd wanted and loved to do in the church. At the end of those three years in Sante Fe, I couldn't resist the call anymore.

Kathy Brawley: Now that I realize that there was supposed to be a call, I'll have to get out of ministry. I joke about it, but it is sort of the truth. I have tried desperately to get out of ministry at times--and I just can't seem to do it.

I grew up in the Methodist Church, and a couple of times our interim pastors were women. I didn't know there was a problem with women in ministry until I got out of college and I was traveling with an evangelistic group. I remember sitting around a table with a woman on the board of directors and the wives of the married men in the organization. The wives were expressing their frustration that the husbands never told them anything. This woman on the board told them that they would just have to wait quietly and in submission for their husbands to tell them what they wanted them to know. That was the first time I realized there was a problem.

The call initially came out of my frustration being a teen-ager and not having anyone who would understand or connect with me. I kept waiting for someone from the church to be that kind of person. I realized that I wanted to be that person for other people. I didn't know that was a call to ministry. I just thought that was something I needed to do for the rest of my life.

When I went to work at a local church, I found out that I just love being with people and living life together. I didn't call it pastoring then, but that's what it was. I was being their pastor. And it wasn't just the kids in the youth group, it was their families and their parents as well. It was like an unfolding for me.

Jane: When my dad was in seminary, Eric Hawkinson was the dean. His advice to students was: "If there is any way you can get out of it, do it. If you find that there is no way you can walk away, then you belong."

Kathy: I just said that to a student the other day. He said, "I grew up thinking that I should be a pastor." And I told him, "If you can do anything else, you should do something else," and he nearly fell out of the chair.

Bob Smietana: Where has being a woman been an asset for your ministry?

Kathy: It's been an asset with all the young women I know in the church, and who come to our school, who don't have a role model for how to follow Jesus as a woman. I think that is a significant issue--it was for me. I think being a woman gives me an advantage at times, to be the grace of God for them in a different form than they are accustomed to.

Heidi: I think that women are good nurturers, and in a rural and small town setting, that's what people want. They don't want somebody to get up and preach beyond who they are. They want somebody just to love them and care for them. And that's who I am as a woman.

In my first church, many of the older people lived in small towns where at least one other church had a woman pastor. The fact that I was a woman was almost a sign of pride. I would go to functions with some of these older ladies and they'd grab my arm and say, "This is my pastor." They were my biggest supporters, those older men and women. They would do anything for me and it was wonderful.

Judy: I think women are less tunnel-visioned and so their lives are more integrated. They can handle the chaos of ministry without getting rattled. When some of my male colleagues get angry over things like being told that the Scripture reader should have had a tie on or they didn't like the middle hymn, I just laugh and hug the people. That's like having five kids--there is always some kid telling me what they didn't like. It's just like having a big family, and you kind of just pat them and love them all.

Nancy: When I started serving at Winnetka, I think I brought a different set of eyes, coming in as a single mom. I noticed that there are a lot of single women there. I started making contact with some of the women and we formed a single women's group that actually became a significant part of the life of that church.

A woman in a congregation told me once, "You know, when you are in the pulpit, I have feeling that everything is going to be all right." Somehow my presence was stable, unflustered, and they responded to that. I wasn't doing anything intentional--I was just being there.

Judy: People have also said that they feel that their children are very welcome. If babies make noise it's okay. I usually don't even hear it.

Heidi: There were a lot of kids in the church I served in Iowa. People were always apologizing after worship because their children were making noise in church. But we need kids there to show us what life is all about. I didn't care one bit. I loved it.

Kathy: I have found that as a woman, I am less threatening, especially dealing with kids who have been emotionally and/or physically abused. By kids, I mean all the way up to young adults. I teach with four guys and even though they are as compassionate and as gentle as I am, by the fact that they are male they are perceived as potential aggressors.

Mary: I would say that I balance some things. I make sure that I have illustrations that are both male and female. If there is a little boy story, I make sure we have a little girl story. If there is a mom story, I make sure that there is a dad story. I think that it is also true in meetings--I try to balance out the voices so that no one voice dominates.

Bob: Are there times when being a woman has been a disadvantage?

Heidi: At conference meetings, people come up to me and ask, "Oh, your husband serves at that church. How long have you been there?" It is assumed from the get-go that I am the pastor's wife.

Judy: People always assume that I am the associate pastor. We don't have one. We'd like one, but we don't have one.

Mary: Early on, when I was an intern, I was invited to the men's prayer breakfast. And then my first church, that was very true too. So it drives me crazy when Promise Keepers excludes women pastors. I know they have done some good things, but there has also been some pretty lousy modeling about pastoring. I'd love to be able to have a men's program that is popular, provides Sunday school and discussions, and admits that I am a part of men's ministries.

Nancy: Being a woman wasn't a hindrance in the church itself. But it was a hindrance when it was time to move. I realized that the Winnetka church had a chance to get to know me on a very low-cost, very low-key basis. After seminary that developed into a call. I did not have that opportunity with a new church. I could no longer go into a church and volunteer. I need to be able to support myself and my kids.

Kathy: Every time I talk to a woman who can't get a call or who can't get a second call, I remember a letter I received when I got out of seminary.

"Your qualifications and your education are exactly what we are looking for. But we are looking for someone other than yourself." Everything you've done, everything you've studied is exactly what we want but we want somebody other than you. The only thing they knew about me was my education, my experience, and the fact that I was a woman. Those were the only three variables and they liked the first two.

Judy: One of the hindrances at the Boston church is that you have to go through the men's room to get to the furnace. When I got there, I had to learn how to bleed the valves because the furnace was in such bad shape. Who would have thought that the pastor would be a woman, for heaven's sake, when they built the building? So I knock on the door and say, "Coming through" and then I go in.

Bob: What part of life as a pastor did seminary not prepare you for?

Heidi: This has nothing related to being a woman but I'd never been to a funeral. I'd never seen a funeral. And my first month in ministry, I had three. Judy: I did not learn about weddings, funerals, or baptisms in seminary. I had learned those things from the pastor I worked with in Dover.

Mary: Financial bottom lines and resource allocations, and being able to evaluate them was really an omission in seminary. Writing an annual report was fine. But when you get to numbers instead of words, we didn't do very much of that.

Heidi: You get lot of the practical theology in seminary, but you don't get the everyday details of how to be a pastor. And maybe that is okay, because you find your own way. You learn to do it a way that is comfortable for you. Seminary can't teach you how to do that.

Mary: I just talked to a colleague whose son is also a pastor. His son called and said, "If the pastor's job description is to shovel the snow, don't you think they ought to give me a decent shovel?" And his dad told him, "You're on your own on that one."

Jane: What changes have you seen since you first entered the ministry? What changes would you like to see?

Mary: One change was the number of people at the clergy women meeting. I remember when it was just three of us. When I was first out of seminary, Janet Lundblad was in the Donaldson church and I was in the Detroit-area. We would meet like twice a year for lunch and we would call it the "Covenant Clergy Women Meeting."

Nancy: We are moving in a more positive, pro-active direction. But there still needs to be a legitimate place for the pain to be expressed. And finding a way to balance that is tricky. But it's very difficult in a congregational polity system to effect change and that's the reality we live in.

Kathy: I don't want to have to keep answering the question for young women: "If I go to seminary, is there going to be any place for me?" I want to be able to say yes, there is a place for you. You won't have to go make your way completely on your own.

Heidi: Even with all the pain and frustration--I can't imagine doing anything else with my life. During the first few months I was in Iowa, I was sitting in my office laughing, thinking, "They are paying me to do this. This is so much fun." I want other women to experience the joy and satisfaction of being exactly where God is calling them to be. And not having to apologize for the call that God's given them, because it is a wonderful place to be, whatever God is calling you to.

Profiles of Women in Ministry

Linnea Carnes
Pastor, Immanuel Covenant Church,
Chicago, Illinois

Carnes has served Immanuel since September 1999. Previously, she was senior pastor at Covenant Congregational Church in Pawtucket, Rhode Island for five-and-a-half years. She has been in full-time ministry for ten years.

"I have a passion for communicating the truth of the word of God," said Carnes, who earned her master of divinity at Denver Theological Seminary. She also studied violin performance at the University of Kansas. She has put her musical training to work at Immanuel, serving as both pastor and choir director.

Carnes's first pastoral experience was at First Covenant Church in Denver, where she served as an associate and interim senior pastor. Previously, she was a public-school teacher, and served part-time in a number of church music ministries.

She grew up in racially diverse Chicago Heights, Illinois, and is convinced her childhood experiences prepared her to work with a diverse congregation. She credits her husband, Kip, with allowing her the flexibility to follow God's call to a mid-life career change.

"When I entered seminary I didn't feel like I had to be a pastor," said Carnes. "But I felt as I went through seminary that God would open doors for me in ministry. He created me a woman, but also sent me off to be a pastor."

Martha Freeman
Senior pastor, Community Covenant Church,
Omaha, Nebraska

Freeman has served in a pastoral role for all twelve years of the church's existence, the past five as senior pastor. She says that her upbringing as the daughter of a Southern Baptist Air Force chaplain helped prepare her for ministry.

"I think it gave it me a broad based view of Protestant church and a tolerance of many folks. At our church, people come from many backgrounds and it's helped me to help them find a place here."

Freeman first learned about the Covenant Church while she was a student at Nebraska Wesleyan University. "I was drawn to the Covenant because of the integrity of the pastors I encountered," said Freeman, "Pastors Norbert Johnson, Steve Pitts, Ralph Sturdy, and Chuck Anderson were among those who supported me as I considered the possibility of ministry."

She taught school for three years while husband Steve (an internist) attended medical school. While a teacher, she began thinking seriously about the ministry. She eventually received her master of divinity degree from North Park Theological Seminary and was ordained shortly thereafter.

Freeman says that she enjoys that long-term relationship she has built by staying in the same church for twelve years. "I'm starting to marry kids I've confirmed and confirm kids that I baptized as infants." She has confirmed the second of her own five children. "It's very exciting to be part of a church in which people are warm and caring. It's a family feeling, and I feel like my maternal and nurturing characteristics help to contribute to that family feeling."

Freeman credits her husband's support and the advocacy of many church leaders for affirming her as a pastor.

"I can't imagine doing anything else," Freeman said. "And my children have thrived here. It's actually been a great career for a mother. I get to be part of their spiritual life and they're here for me a lot. And my schedule is flexible enough that I can be there for their field trips and class parties."

LuAnn Johnson
Senior pastor, Covenant Congregational Church,
Quincy, Massachusetts

Johnson, who has served in Quincy for the past seven and a half years, has been in full-time ministry for twenty years.

"My joy is helping people find an ever-deepening and satisfying relationship with Christ," said Johnson, "It's been a really good experience here. There are a lot of wonderful people."

Johnson grew up in Minneapolis and came to the faith in the Evangelical Free Church. She went to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois, and hoped to eventually work with Wycliffe Bible translators. Then she got involved with an inner-city ministry that changed her life.

"I grew up in an upper-middle-class church and wanted a different experience," said Johnson. "I looked up a church in the Yellow Pages and found an Evangelical Free Church in the worst neighborhood--Salem Evangelical Free Church in Humboldt Park in Chicago. I got deeply involved with the kids in the neighborhood and found out that God could use me, not just my head, in ministry."

Johnson did her internship with a Free Church ministry in Annondale, Virginia. She returned to Chicago to do inner-city ministry, was ordained in 1982, then joined the Navy. She served as a chaplain for nine years. When she retired from the Navy, she went "denomination shopping," eventually discovering the Evangelical Covenant Church in 1992. A year later, she was called to Covenant Congregational Church.

Johnson considers teaching and preaching to be strong gifts, although she particularly enjoys using her gift of hospitality in getting better acquainted with her congregation. In her spare time, she enjoys quilting and hrdanging, a Norwegian form of needlework.

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